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dude_trader... pending
 
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BPAAdmin
Site Admin
123463 Points

USA
PostYou have posted in this forum: Tue Jul 20, 2010 4:16 pm   Post subject:  dude_trader... pending Back to top 

This is the pending arbitration process for complaints from dude_trader. The issue had been resolved as of last week, but a post was made a couple days ago (on another forum) where there were claims that he was unfairly treated. As a matter of fairness I will state the facts as I see them and dude_trader is invited to state the facts as he sees them. If dude_trader wishes to have a vote as to decide any outcome, then I will ask for that. Unless comments are asked for, please do not post on this thread.

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BPAAdmin
Site Admin
123463 Points

USA
PostYou have posted in this forum: Tue Jul 27, 2010 12:36 pm   Post subject:  Re: dude_trader... pending Back to top 

This is an account of discussions regarding dude_trader's accusations of being treated unfairly by the administration of this forum. Statements are paraphrased and if any facts are disputed the actual e-mail will be provided to support them. If dude_trader so chooses, he can request the start of an arbitration process where the members can decide a fair outcome.

dude_trader log (D_T=dude_trader, BPA=BrooksPriceAction Admin)
(somes times may be off due to differences of various servers)


Wednesday, June 23, 2010 6:30 PM D_T Signed up for webinar free trial

Thursday, June 24, 2010 6:30AM D_T receives access to the webinar

Friday, June 25, 2010 6:30AM D_T receives access to the webinar

Sunday, June 27, 2010 5:03 AM D_T>Al asks if he can pay for the webinar in person with cash.

Sunday, June 27, 2010 9:10 PM BPA responds that Al has nothing to do with the accounting and that payment must be made through PayPal.

Monday, June 28, 2010 6:30 AM BPA gives D_T an extra day in the webinar which D_T did not request.

Tuesday, June 29, 2010 6:55 AM D_T>Al: Asked if he signed up or July today if he could get in the rest of June for free

Tuesday, June 29, 2010 5:22 PM D_T>Al: Asked again if he signed up or July today if he could get in the rest of June for free. Al responds that he doesn't have anything to do with the website administration and will forward the message to the admin.

Tuesday, June 29, 2010 5:26 PM D_T Said he signed up for July and realized there was one day left in June and that it would be cool if he could get the last day of June for free.

Tuesday, June 29, 2010 5:29 PM BPA replies that D_T has been given access for the extra day

Tuesday, June 29, 2010 8:44 PM D_T Sent a thank you for approving him for an extra day.

Wednesday, June 30, 2010 6:30AM D_T receives access to the webinar

Saturday, July 03, 2010 3:34 PM D_T asks Al to draw patterns on his charts.

Tuesday, July 06, 2010 6:05 PM D_T asks 2 questions on the forums. Al answers them.

Wednesday, July 07, 2010 7:43 PM D_T asks 2 questions on the forums. Al answers them.

Friday, July 09, 2010 1:05 PM D_T asked 6 questions in the webinar.

Friday, July 09, 2010 1:24 PM BPA requests that D_T limit questions to one per day

Friday, July 09, 2010 1:30 PM Al answered the 6 questions in the webinar.

Friday, July 09, 2010 7:29 PM D_T asks 2 questions on the forums. Al answers them.

Friday, July 09, 2010 12:42 PM D_T asks a question on the forums. Al answers it.

Sunday, July 11, 2010 11:22 AM D_T asks a question on the forums. Al answers it.

Monday, July 12, 2010 1:05 PM D_T asks 6 questions in the webinar, after the first question D_T says: "thanks al, you can either answer the q's below now or i will post them in the forum". Al answers all the questions now.

Monday, July 12, 2010 1:48 PM Al>BPA: "boy, the questions are getting long! is there any way that we can get them short again, like maybe 10 words or so? also, i would prefer not multiple questions in one question. i get tired by the end of the day and i would rather not answer too many and it is difficult to read lengthy ones, esp when there are several parts."

Monday, July 12, 2010 2:28 PM BPA again stated that questions in the webinar must be limited to on per person per day and that when posting on Al's section of the forum that it be limited to just asking questions relating to Al's post.

Monday, July 12, 2010 2:31 PM D_T replied "ok"

Monday, July 12, 2010 4:25 PM D_T asked 2 questions on the forums, Al answers them.

Monday, July 12, 2010 5:39 PM D_T asks 3 questions in the forums. Al answers them.

Monday, July 12, 2010 7:23 PM D_T asks another question on the forums. Al answers it.

Monday, July 12, 2010 9:09 PM D_T asks another question on the forums. Al answers it.

Tuesday, July 13, 2010 1:37 PM D_T said he didn't have access to post questions in the webinar

Tuesday, July 13, 2010 2:01 PM BPA responded asking for more details and what time he was trying to ask the question

Tuesday, July 13, 2010 3:40 PM D_T asked 6 questions in the forums. Al answered them

Tuesday, July 13, 2010 10:36 AM D_T asks another question on the forums. Al responds that he discussed this in the webinar and answered the question, anyway.

Wednesday, July 14, 2010 1:23 PM D_T says he still doesn't have the window to post questions

Wednesday, July 14, 2010 1:28 PM D_T sent a screen shot of his screen from 1:16PM showing there is no option for asking questions

Wednesday, July 14, 2010 1:29 PM BPA responded explaining that the questions are turned off and on for the whole webinar and not for individuals and that other people were finding it. We asked that a screen shot be taken with the menu dropped down at the time that the questions option should be there.

Wednesday, July 14, 2010 1:34 PM D_T said he forwarded a pic he took earlier.

Wednesday, July 14, 2010 1:50 PM BPA explains that the Questions window is only available for up tp 5 minutes starting at 1:00 PM and that it will be shut off as soon as there are 5 questions

Wednesday, July 14, 2010 3:39 PM D_T asked Al 6 questions in the forums. Al responded that he talked about every one of them in the webinar but still answered them on the forums

Wednesday, July 14, 2010 2:17 PM Al sends BPA a message asking if D_T is in the webinar because he asked a lot of questions that were already addressed in there. Al says he prefers to not answer so many questions from one person, especially when he already addressed them in the webinar. I responded that D_T was in the webinar and that I would request that he not ask so many questions.

Thursday, July 15, 2010 1:03 PM D_T posts a long question in the webinar (60 words), BPA: "You can't ask a question that long. Questions must be kept short.", D_T: "last two days couldn't get this box up. now this", BPA: "just put in a shorter version of the question", D_T: your [Al's] audio is scratchy again, BPA: "this is not a place for commentary. we all hear the mic.", D_T: "your killing me", BPA: "sorry", D_T: "sorry, that is my q", A: "ok"

Thursday, July 15, 2010 1:18 PM D_T said the rules were too strict, questions box failed to load for 2 days, complained that he was asked to shorten a question. Stated that he can't learn if he can't ask a single question.

Thursday, July 15, 2010 4:06 PM BPA sent a detailed email saying there was probably just a misunderstanding, explaining that 1) Al is only contracted to provide the webinar during trading hours and is under no obligation to answer anyone's questions during the additional time he sticks around to cover the day's action, 2) Al is not involved in the administration of the website, 3) Al asked that webinar questions be limited to 5 short questions per day because he was spending too much time answering questions, 4) Rules regarding asking questions are clearly spelled out where D_T gets the daily webinar link, as are instructions for specifically how and when to ask questions, 5) asked that questions for Al in the forums be limited to one per day out of respect for Al's time and that individuals do not monopolize his time since the forums have 200 visitors each day and this is not part of Al's contract with the website, 6) Al's section of the forums is not for traders to make personal commentary on the markets (he can use the other sections for that) or for raising technical problems on the webinar or for making comments like "dude... slow the mouse down". 7) Al's section of the forums is not the place to ask general questions like "What's the idea behind a MM (Measured Move) and that Al has already written pages on that in his book, 8.) BPA will now aggressively restrict questions in the webinar and that an opportunity was given to shorten the last question and D_T opted not to. BPA then requested that the questions be throttled back to one per day and that D_T try to learn from the questions that others ask and BPA provided a link to the forum post on getting started with trading price action. BPA then clarified that D_T does not have to like the rules but that he will be expected to follow them. BPA then said he was glad that D_T was part of the webinar and hoped that he would continue to find the website valuable.

Thursday, July 15, 2010 5:16 PM D_T says BPA needs to get his facts straight and that he never asked for an extra day in the webinar and that BPA's accusations were uncalled for and inappropriate. D_T requested a refund and said he would be sending a copy of e-mails to Al due to the accusations and lack of respect D_T was shown. D_T says it is not his problem that Al is getting overwhelmed with questions and that customer service "is being compromised and that is unprofessional." D_T states that it is ridiculous that he be limited in making personal commentary in Al's section of the forums, that he has never been treated so badly in a chat room before, that the regulations are ridiculous, and that all we want is robots to write a check every month. D_T states that it makes zero sense that he be asked to shorten a question. D_T states that he knows how to use the webinar software and that the questions window failed to show up. D_T reasserts he never asked for more than the two days of the free trial.

Thursday, July 15, 2010 6:08 PM BPA sends Al an e-mail apologizing in advance if he receives an e-mail referring to an administration related issue regarding the person that was asking a lot of questions in the webinar and on the forums, and to feel free to forward it back to BPA so any new issues can be addressed.

Thursday, July 15, 2010 6:08 PM BPA responds to D_T and says he is sorry that D_T feels a needs to leave. A copy of prior e-mails are included explicitly showing that the extra day(s) had been requested by D_T. D_T is invited to stay for the rest of his subscription period. BPA explains that D_T is a member of the website and not a customer, and that the members have contracted with Al to provide the webinar. BPA explains the policy on the signup page that states "Think carefully before you join, there are no refunds", and that it is not fair to take money back from Al when the issues are administrative in nature. BPA states he has been reasonable in asking the questions be limited and that every effort has been made to work with D_T. BPA reminds D_T that the issues relating to questions in the forums have nothing to do with the webinar and that Al answers questions on the forum for all members of the board, whether or not they subscribe to the webinar, and that Al is under no obligation to answer anyone's questions anywhere. BPA then offers to consider the refund, despite the policy against it, if it is shown that BPA has acted unfairly (as is claimed by D_T), and needs to consider the arbitration terms by the members of the website so there is a fair outcome for both D_T and Al. BPA states that this is a new issue and that this is the first time a refund has been requested since the start of the webinar eight months ago. BPA asks that D_T request an amount he thinks is a fair amount to be refunded. BPA states there will be no further action unless D_T responds.

Thursday, July 15, 2010 6:19 PM D_T responds that he doesn't have time for this, that it is unprofessional that BPA "throws in his face" the fact that he asked for an additional day for free, and that he didn't complain the day that Al's Internet went down for a few hours. D_T states that BPA does not understand or care that this is a "give and take" deal. D_T reiterates that he wants his money back but will settle for $50 since it is the middle of the month.

Thursday, July 15, 2010 7:09 AM BPA responds that 1) the issue relating to the extra day in the webinar was originally used as an example of how we are trying to be accommodating of D_T's requests, 2) the reference to "give and take" is confusing, 3) that enough time has been put into this issue that it will now be seen through to completion because there are accusations of unfairness made against the administration of the website, 4) that the members of the website will be the final arbitrator as to who has and has not been treated fairly, 5) that the facts relating to this issue will be presented by both parties and that where there are discrepancies the relevant e-mails, policies, etc, can be provided to support the claims, 6) the administration of the website has been fair in requesting that policies relating to questions be enforced, 7) that asking that questions on the forums be limited out of respect for Al's time, is reasonable, 8.) that the issues relating to asking questions is ultimately irrelevant since no right to ask Al questions exists, 9) that the members will have the option of refunding the full webinar price if they find that the administration has acted unfairly, 10) that the members will also have the option of banning D_T if it is found that the accusations were unjust, 11) It is BPA's hope that D_T will choose to finish out his subscription and then decide whether or not to renew his subscription in August, just like every other member of the webinar does, 12) the best solution is to drop the whole issue and get on with life.

Thursday, July 15, 2010 7:25 PM D_T says that BPA keeps stirring the pot, restates that he does not have time for this, that BPA makes things more difficult by wanting the forum to get involved, that BPA makes this more complicated with "mumbo jumbo crap of pointing fingers and making yourself look flawless and perfect". D_T states he has logged out, walked away and will not be back, "end of story". D_T says BPA can "take all the legal disclaimers and whatever else is in there and throw them out the window" and that hopefully BPA is done with the long-winded replies.

Thursday, July 15, 2010 8:24 PM BPA responds with "ok"

Saturday, July 17, 2010 4:30 PM D_T makes accusations on another forum: 1) that the BPA forums are a joke because they questions to 5 short questions per day 2) don't expect Al to answer every question a trader has, 3) "i found the forum useless due to it's restrictions and rules", 4) complained when he was informed that he was breaking the rules and asked to stop, 5) "i have been in a few trading rooms in my time and this one sucked big time." 6) the "forum sucked and shouldn't really be called a forum".

Tuesday, July 20, 2010 6:16 PM Since D_T has chosen to raise the issue if the integrity of the admins/forums on this website at an outside forum, I think it is only fair that both sides be told. BPA starts the arbitration process.

Tuesday, July 27, 2010 12:40 PM BPA posts the facts from the administration's perspective so that everyone has access to both sides of the story. Dude_trader is free to post his interpretation of the facts and to request that the members arbitrate the facts and decide the outcome regarding refunds and proposed changes in policies.

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BPAAdmin
Site Admin
123463 Points

USA
PostYou have posted in this forum: Fri Aug 06, 2010 12:23 pm   Post subject:  Re: dude_trader... pending Back to top 

Rather than address the issue here, out in the open, dude_trader has e-mailed me. Once in the arbitration process, I think it is best that all further discussions be out in the open.

Here is his email and my response below:

From: xxxxx xxxxxxxxx [mailto:xxxxxxxxxx@xxxxx.xxx]
Sent: Thursday, August 05, 2010 11:07 PM
To: BPAAAdmin
Subject: Re: not happy with webinar rules

i still want my $50 back for cancelling 50% thru my subscribtion. i think that is fair. there is no need to raise a fuss in your forum nor in [removed] forum. i am trying to be patient with you so when you reply back...no need for the long winded usual mumbo jumbo.

again, let's not make this more complicated than necessary but i am fully prepared to continue the game if need be. i think it will be a childish choice on your part if you decide to choose that path. i have saved all of the g2web vids and have started taking notes on some interesting quotes that al made. there is one quote in there where he says on bar 19 "i'm not going to buy at the top of the range" only to say on bar 20 "to be honest, i tried taking that long but waited too long and missed it". his words not mine.

al is a great guy but that comment sends mixed signals and creates confusion to a trader who is trying to follow along. maybe there are more mixed signals in the other 10 videos that i will have to review. do you really want to be the person who makes al look questionable for $50 bucks? i will leave that up to you


Hi xxxxx,

I appreciate your offer to leave the decision as to what I will do up to me, but I still fail to understand what is “fair” about refunding $50 when there is a “no refund” policy which you agreed to by subscribing. You also have yet to explain where you get your entitlement to have questions answered by Al on the website and webinar (your original complaint that supposedly necessitates this refund). If you think the policies are unfair, or that you have been treated unfairly by me, then we have the arbitration process to deal with that. If you are right then I am sure you will feel justified by the outcome. I welcome an open and transparent discussion of ALL the facts at the appropriate place in the arbitration section of the forums. Please post your version of the facts there as I have, or feel free to drop the issue, I really don’t care. Just be aware that I will continue to defend any unfair accusations against me, the website, or Al.

My "long-winded" responses are because I am trying to clearly lay out the facts as best I can while making my points understandable. I will continue to respond in such a way as I find appropriate at the time. If you find my responses long-winded, full of mumbo-jumbo, or childish, that is your problem, not mine.

This is anything but a game to me and it is certainly not about the $50, it is about defending my integrity and that of the website. The fact is, I believe you have no basis whatsoever for your complaints and you have been anything but charitable in your responses. I would rather the whole website go up in flames than to be bullied by a manipulative person and compromise my own convictions on this matter. I will not back down because I believe I am right, although I will accept the decision of the members of this site if they find I am wrong. The actions I take today define the person I become tomorrow. I think this concept applies to both of us. So, do what you are going to do, and if you think you are right and I am wrong then present your version of the facts and let the members of the site fairly decide this dispute.

As far as “making Al look questionable for $50 bucks”, I’ll tell you what, I will do it for free! No doubt, Al sometimes says things that are confusing. No doubt, he will sometimes change his mind at the last minute. No doubt, he will make mistakes. No doubt, a word by word analysis of Al’s webinar could find something questionable in any given day. Al would be the first person to say he can change his mind just about every minute on every trade setup. Why is that? It is because he trades off the price action, which is constantly changing. (BTW, people are not supposed to be following along on Al’s trades, he is trying to teach identification of price action setups which is one reason why he does not tell people when to take trades.) Let me make it clear to anyone that is reading this: If you want perfection, do NOT subscribe to Al’s daily webinar. There are plenty of other subscriptions services out there that try to fit that mold; we are not one of them, nor have we ever claimed to be. What Al does is honestly share his thoughts bar-by-bar as the day unfolds. I challenge anyone here to do this as well as he does.

I look forward to your response on the website. All discussions should be completely transparent so they can be fairly judged by the other members.

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